tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post7481697769959788192..comments2024-01-21T11:18:54.087-05:00Comments on Lost in the Movies: Triumph of the WillJoel Bockohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11238338958380683893noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-24879049813989104462010-08-02T11:05:04.577-04:002010-08-02T11:05:04.577-04:00Fair points - and I can't really defend my use...Fair points - and I can't really defend my use of the terms "superego" and "id" as I was using them rather casually; I can cop to being not very well-versed in Freudianism! As to the point about art being ethical, in addition to my feeling that art should represent the psyche in all its thorny aspects and not necessarily try to "steer us" correctly (which is not necessarily what you're saying, of course), I also have to admit that many of my favorite films are morally ambiguous at best & I'd hate to lose them!Joel Bockohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11238338958380683893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-54711419472189730252010-08-02T01:45:49.039-04:002010-08-02T01:45:49.039-04:00One reason why I find the documentary so compellin...One reason why I find the documentary so compelling is that it does not claim (except for the seemingly deterministic final lines that you quote here) that Nazism was purely driven by aesthetic visions (Why, for instance, would Germany get into the Blitzkrieg if not for political motivations?).<br /><br />Every movement - left or right, progressive or regressive- is political in its propagation, but there has to be some philosophical myth that speaks to the heart, to the subconscious, be it the Aryan theory of racial purity or Manifest Destiny so that it appeals to the masses. It just happened to be this idea of beauty for the Nazis.<br /><br />Totally agree on the art-id relationship, MM. But aren't the objectives of the superego fueled by the id? Freudians say that it was this libidinous energy of the id that was channelized into nationalism. Consumer capitalism strengthened itself because marketing appealed to the id (the Curtis documentary on this is very good). I truly believe that the connection between art and aesthetics can be illustrated by psychoanalysis (and possibly structuralism too).<br /><br />Likewise, I'd say cinema (the twin sibling of psychoanalysis) has the power to polarize the subconscious towards an ideology - by telling us stories that subtly shape our subconscious and unconscious. That's why I believe it should be highly ethical (yes, that power-responsibility thing that Spidey said).<br /><br />Cheers!Just Another Film Buffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17880550053788464732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-27290315088291650532010-08-01T14:13:33.240-04:002010-08-01T14:13:33.240-04:00As for the ideal of life as art, I kind of agree w...As for the ideal of life as art, I kind of agree with Sontag there. I've argued before that ethics and aesthetics should not become too intertwined. The reason is that aesthetics/art belongs largely to the Id, while society belongs to the Superego. Art is made of many elements, but fundamentally it is selfish - an expression of individual consciousness, an assertion of will, an immersion into feeling. As Sontag indicates, if these tendencies are given free reign in social interaction they can cloud rational judgements. Communal spirit can be reached through emotional means, to be sure, but all emotions exist in fluctuation, and emotional commitment is not a firm bedrock on which to build a community. Better to utilize emotion (repress it too much and it will come blazing forward in a violent outpouring of the unconscious) but to rest the foundations of law and social relationships on intellect, reason, and common sense - imo.Joel Bockohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11238338958380683893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-29420598486512832522010-08-01T14:08:53.784-04:002010-08-01T14:08:53.784-04:00Thanks, JAFB (I like this piece too, which is why ...Thanks, JAFB (I like this piece too, which is why I put it in the "Top Posts" section, it's definitely the strongest thing I ever wrote for The Sun's Not Yellow). I will have to read Sontag's whole essay again and return to this comment. For now, though, I'd say that her point is not that these things are evil because they're linked to fascism, but rather that they are bound in with fascistic impulses, that indeed a fascist lurks in all of us and sugarcoating Riefenstahl is a way for people to "other" fascism.<br /><br />"And does "the dissolution of alienation in ecstatic feelings of community;" imply that conservatism is a fascist ideology?"<br /><br />I would say no, and indeed this notion is more typically seen on left than right (which admittedly makes the association with fascism even more bizarre), but then it depends what type of conservatism we're talking about. Individualist conservatism (economic libertarianism), traditionalist conservatism, or neoconservatism? The first is definitely not concerned with community, the seconnd both is and isn't - on the one hand it's tied to institutions, on the other it's vary wary of "ecstatic" senses of community, preferring something more solid and enduring. The third make a lot of commotion about community but in practice is more interested in elites enacting their "democratic" agenda without much involvement from the public (at least as far as foreign policy goes, and outside of that realm the neocons don't have much to add to the discussion). But I suppose that's another post.<br /><br />One thing I like about Sontag's passage is that it dissociates fascism from political ideology. Now, I would not want to take this too far - which is why I cannot wholly endorse The Architecture of Doom's final analysis, even while appreciating much of it. Bu it does focus on the emotional forces fascism taps into, and God knows - probably more than any other political movement - fascism is deeply emotional.<br /><br />I think viewing fascism purely as a political movement tends to lead to bizarre and narrow arguments, like the tedious one Jonah Goldberg makes in his book Liberal Fascism (yes, there are connections between liberalism and fascism, but they are not fundamental ones; to the extent fascism belongs on the ideological spectrum I would place it on the right).Joel Bockohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11238338958380683893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-14166293010465127442010-08-01T13:36:50.291-04:002010-08-01T13:36:50.291-04:00Just saw Architecture of Doom. A brilliant documen...Just saw Architecture of Doom. A brilliant documentary I must say. Puts a lot of things into perspective. <br /><br /><br />Reading the review after a long time, Sontag's text startles me. She calls "the ideal of life as art" as fascist. It really appalls me. What's wrong in seeing life as art. In fact, isn't Utopia the merging of life and art. I think this is grossly simplistic. <br /><br /><br />What Hitler did was take forward a flawed sense of beauty to its extreme (the documentary makes it clear that even formally, his tastes were very "lowbrow"). If seeing the ideal of life as art is fascist, why make art at all? Isn't it to improve people's lives? <br /><br />The National Socialist party thought that class barriers could be overcome by making the proletariat aesthetically knowledgeable (absurd, no doubt). By her argument, can one say that seeking to overcome class differences itself is a fascist notion? <br /><br /><br />And does "the dissolution of alienation in ecstatic feelings of community;" imply that conservatism is a fascist ideology? <br /><br />And that's just the first paragraph (I haven't read the whole essay. So I'm just shooting in the dark here). She seems to be wary of every community-forming practice. Man is not an island.<br /><br />This essay is one of your very best, MM. I say this deserves wider attention.Just Another Film Buffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17880550053788464732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-2412628347901564002010-01-05T08:19:50.937-05:002010-01-05T08:19:50.937-05:00Impressive post. Leni Riefenstahl remains enigmat...Impressive post. Leni Riefenstahl remains enigmatic, never thoroughly de-Nazified, but the power of her carefully interpreted images remains stunning. I agree her films remain effective in part because the most beastial element of the subject still appeals to many twisted individuals(your comments on the YouTube crowd are interesting), but also because she was a director of talent. With her (Nazi) populist platform, we might almost picture her as a Bizarro World Frank Capra.<br><br>Thanks for a great essay.Jacqueline T Lynchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11047941886908178350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-70702367790045969042010-01-05T09:46:38.545-05:002010-01-05T09:46:38.545-05:00Thanks, Jacqueline. The Capra mention is interesti...Thanks, Jacqueline. The Capra mention is interesting since I had him (and Why We Fight) in mind when talking about filmmakers who studied her work and used it against her. From what I've seen, Why We Fight doesn't exactly echo Riefenstahl's techniques (the parts I've seen were based more on editing existing footage together than on shooting fresh footage) but I have heard that Capra took Riefenstahl to heart before "rebutting" her.MovieMan0283http://www.blogger.com/profile/11238338958380683893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-35569471745264807632010-01-06T00:55:55.517-05:002010-01-06T00:55:55.517-05:00Joel, first things first. This is a stupendous ess...Joel, first things first. This is a stupendous essay, rich for infinite debate. Plaese, please publish it in WitD too, because, Personally, I find that the comment system of Blogspot sucks big time.<br><br>Rest assured that I will be returning to this essay regularly. Let me throw here some random points that had been hovering in my mind while reading the essay:<br><br>1. I have to ckeck out architecture of Doom. It seems too provocative to be missed. I'm telling this because this film, which you have found fascinating, was called the worst movie to be made about the Holocaust, just ahead of Schindler, by one of my favorite writers, Dennis Grunes:<br><br>http://grunes.wordpress.com/2007/02/04/schindlers-list-steven-spielberg-1993/<br><br>I have to see the film now and I believe I would like it too. <br><br>2. I HAVE to read Sontag's essay too. Is it available online, somewhere?<br><br>3. I've been struggling, as you know, to come to terms with the debate between aesthetics and ethics of a film. Lein said: "Today's ethics is tomorrow's esthetics". But I believe, with the new-age media, it has become the other way round. <br><br>Can we seperate the politics of a film from its aesthetics? I am reading James Monaco's The New Wave at present, where he clearly presents why he believes one shouldn't seperate politics and film. Briefly, he argues that the photographic property of the medium forces us to see the object and not the form of the image (unlike other arts) and goes on to explain why, hence, film IS politics. I will try to provide the whole text some time soon.<br><br>Also, I find the statement "Aesthetics is all about what's attractive, not necessarily what is good" very intriguing. Could you please elaborate on what you mean by "attractive" here? <br><br>I saw Chuan Lu's City of Life and Death recently. It is a film that recereates, with considerable visual splendor and skillful compositions, the Nanking massacre during WW2. The film was "attractive" to see, with its cinematography being magical and all. But, otherwise, it was a nauseating exercise in futility. Such films, by incessant bombradment of their images, try to replace "real" truth with their version. The Nazis that we know, now, are almost comical and Hitler himself is no less than Chaplin. If Germany had indeed won the war, then films such as Riefenstahl's would have been the norm and we would have had a completely different view about the nazis. It's all about manipyulating your world view with excessive advertising, which is the same thing that goes on in the TV medium nowadays. <br><br>Again, can we actually seperate the politics of a film from its aesthetics? (Reminds me of what Woody's student tells about Riefenstahl's film in Husbands and Wives). When the implicit politics of popular cinema has seeped down to our daily lives and gained acceptance, it is impossible to not consider the politics of popular films, I think. Can a snuff novie, with gorgeous mise en scene and production values, be considered great work of art? Or a 3D movie which presents Jews being knoked off using a sniper by a Nazi officer from a balcony? I'm not sure. <br><br>But that does not mean that your political leaning should affect your assessment of the film. Just that, cinema being an evocative medium thanks to its photographic property, there should be some restraint on the content. <br><br>This is marvelous work, MovieMan. Deserves to be widely read, even if one hasn't seen Riefenstahl's staggering work. The ideas are floating around in my head incoherently. I will be returning to the article regularly.<br><br>Thanks and Cheers!Just Another Film Buffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17880550053788464732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-1997212561991770712010-01-06T02:41:59.154-05:002010-01-06T02:41:59.154-05:00One final thought: isn't it possible that the ...One final thought: isn't it possible that the hysteria over what's "un-showable" and the indignation over Spielberg's representation of the Holocaust (which many Holocaust survivors themselves did not share) has more to do with the overactive ever-"othering", perhaps guilty imaginations of those who weren't there, then it does with the experiences of those who were?<br><br>After all, Adorno wasn't in Auschwitz was he?<br><br>Not saying this point of view doesn't have some validity or that it doesn't lead to interesting, and perhaps particularly honest, results.<br><br>But where are the voices of the survivors in this outcry against Shoah art? Sometimes it seems like the holy fury directed at Spielberg et al. is another case of the intellectual left getting so boisterous in speaking for a suffering group, that they themselves drown out that very group.MovieMan0283http://www.blogger.com/profile/11238338958380683893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-90084862357398836202010-01-06T03:37:23.903-05:002010-01-06T03:37:23.903-05:00One last thing - the more I think about the passag...One last thing - the more I think about the passages I read in that essay, the more they irk me.<br><br>It's not enough for him to criticize the ethical implications of Spielberg's approach - which are fair game - or even to impugn the director's motives in savage, incredibly cruel terms (how does he know whether or not Michelangelo cried while painting the Sistine Chapel?). He has to attack the craftsmanship as well, in terms I don't relate to at all. Schindler's List may be many things, but incompetent it's not.MovieMan0283http://www.blogger.com/profile/11238338958380683893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-90174469124828020872010-01-06T04:12:03.572-05:002010-01-06T04:12:03.572-05:00Ah, yes, Mr. Grunes is terribly provocative (and s...Ah, yes, Mr. Grunes is terribly provocative (and sometimes needlessly ruthless). That's why he is one of my favorite writers :)<br><br>"But where are the voices of the survivors in this outcry against Shoah art? Sometimes it seems like the holy fury directed at Spielberg et al. is another case of the intellectual left getting so boisterous in speaking for a suffering group, that they themselves drown out that very group. "<br><br>I agree with that. But I also think that the ones who were "there" would find the subject matter too close to step back and analyze how exploitative it the piece of art is.<br><br>Another thing troubles me about these "detailed recreations" of the horrors of Holocaust. I mean, we know what all happened. A project that seeks to show HOW they happed seems to me like a pointless exercise, no matter how beautifully or realistically it is made. That kind of a film does not look far from a Final Destination or a Cannibal Holocaust.<br><br>But MovieMan, don't you think providing "instinctive and visceral" impact to the audience is relatively an easy task? What I mean is: Wouldn't then film art merely be a question of inventing newer technologies and techniques to agitate the audience for instant gratification?Just Another Film Buffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17880550053788464732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-13983221364730956442010-01-06T10:14:02.751-05:002010-01-06T10:14:02.751-05:00I'm skeptical of the claim that the survivors ...I'm skeptical of the claim that the survivors are too "close" to judge correctly; in the end, while other opinions on the matter are important, the only one I truly value about in terms of ethical condemnation would be their own. Everyone else is just talking out of their ass (including yours truly).<br><br>Anyway, one reasonable question - in terms of your "re-creation" - seems to be is it ok for a Holocaust film to move us emotionally, or is that very reaction suspect? Should we only be reached intellectually on the subject, in a cold manner, so that we're not ever guilty of "enjoying" the subject? Is it wrong to compose a tragedy - a form which is intensely moving, and cathartic - out of the subject?<br><br>Such questions are reasonable, if a bit perverse, and as I suggested they have much more to do with the queasiness of those who weren't there than the suffering of those who were (who, among other things, have more important things to think about). That's fine, and not a disqualifier, but it SHOULD be taken into consideration especially when the moralistic tone gets out of hand.<br><br>To reproach oneself for mishandling or responding in an uncomfortable way is one thing. To reproach others - not just to reproach, but to condemn - when you are in fact no better, strikes me as hypocritical projected self-loathing. But again, we're speaking of a trademark trait of the intelligentsia - the remarkable ability to, in the name of anti-elitism, be staggeringly elitist, and to conveniently impose what's really their own self-criticism on others, in particularly vitriolic terms.<br><br>"But MovieMan, don't you think providing "instinctive and visceral" impact to the audience is relatively an easy task?"<br><br>Not really. As someone interested in filmmaking myself, I often wish it was! Besides, it's not the only element to a film, but it is a very important one.MovieMan0283http://www.blogger.com/profile/11238338958380683893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7610074516299275060.post-71091549730311305982010-01-06T10:31:08.504-05:002010-01-06T10:31:08.504-05:00Actually, not just a very important one - a crucia...Actually, not just a very important one - a crucial one, the crux of everything else. Let me again reference Kael (who was also terribly provocative and often unnecessarily ruthless, but was also very funny and refreshingly unpretentious):<br><br>"Movie art is not the opposite of what we have always enjoyed in movies, it is not to be found in a return to that official high culture, it is what we have always found good in movies only more so. It's the subversive gesture carried further, the moments of excitement sustained longer and extended into new meanings. At best, the movie is totally informed by the kind of pleasures we have been taking from bits and pieces of movies."<br><br>I wholeheartedly agree, and without that belief I never would have made the "leap" from Raiders of the Lost Ark and Star Wars to Citizen Kane and Masculin Feminin. I would love the cinema less if I didn't see these diverse films as, in some odd way, one of a kind. The most crucial connection is, I think, that visceral aspect, as well as the imaginative one (another absolutely essential element to me, and one which I don't think gets mentioned often - especially not in this day and age of flatness, abruptness, and one-dimensionality in which leaving something to the imagination - or provoking it with what's onscreen - is dangerously close to becoming a lost art).MovieMan0283http://www.blogger.com/profile/11238338958380683893noreply@blogger.com